Empathic Parenting: An Interview With Elliott Barker

Since 1975, Dr. Barker has served as president of the Canadian Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children, the organization that, from 1978 until 2003, published the highly-regarded quarterly journal Empathic Parenting.

RM: Dr. Barker, for almost 40 years now you have been assessing and engaging with both adults and teenagers who committed the most violent of crimes. You’ve also testified as an expert witness in approximately 200 Supreme Court cases.

 

EB: Well, they weren’t all Supreme Court cases, but some of them were.

 

RM: Okay. How have your interactions with these individuals shaped your convictions regarding the needs of young children?

 

EB: Well, when I started at Ontario’s maximum-security mental hospital in 1965, I developed programs there that got popular for psychopaths and many of them were transferred into the hospital for those treatment programs.

 

Worldwide, there is a clear awareness that psycopathy is next impossible to treat, but also the evidence and the research literature is quite clear that the failure of a capacity for empathy happens at the very earliest years. I was involved in developing treatment programs with a large number of psychopaths and aware of the world’s literature. We tried very hard with specialized programs to treat them and they were not successful.

 

I turned my attention, in 1975, to create an organization which would beat the drum for more enlightened care for children in the earliest years because society seems to be oblivious to that. In fact, on early radio shows, they used to say that the most formative years were 12 to 15 or all sorts of things like that. There was very little public concern about nurturing in the first three years. The Canadian Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children really was established to beat the drum for that and to increase public awareness of it.

 

Coincidentally, though, the world was marching towards daycare at the same time at a great rate. The CSPCC—which is the acronym for the Society—has really been out of step with mainstream society, although, I think in the last few years, that is beginning to turn around.

 

RM: You’re currently in private practice specializing in the treatment of teenagers. How would you describe the teenagers that you see on a regular basis?

 

EB: Well, many of them have difficulty with the law and most of them have difficulty with drugs and alcohol and difficulty with schooling, holding a job, or maintaining a relationship with a boy or girl.

 

RM: Do you attribute this behavior to biology, parenting received during the early years, or both?

 

EB: Well, it differs for, I think, different kids. Certainly, it’s rare to find a teenager these days who is in emotional difficulty or difficulty with the law who has a stable family background. Most of them come from split families or next to no families. It’s hard to know in any individual case to know what the causative factors are and it is very hard to get a clear history of the nurturing of the child in the first three years, and that is part of the problem. If you go back when the kid is 16 or 17 and talk to the mother about those early years, it’s tough to get an accurate impression of what was going on even if the mother was there or was consistently there in those early years because it is very subtle stuff—the interactions between a mother primarily and a child. Getting it in retrospectively after 15 years is even tougher.

 

RM: Sure. So what is the research look like in this area. Are there studies that attempt to show a correlation between let’s say the type of parenting a child receives and his or her likelihood to commit crimes?

 

EB: I think the importance of attachment is really pretty well established. Beginning, perhaps before Bowlby, but certainly with Bowlby. But there has been a massive attempt to discredit any of that attachment literature—especially Bowlby—because there has been such a high perceived need for daycare, for parking the kids somewhere else while you’re out earning a buck. Anything that suggested that that is not in the best interest of the child has been debunked vociferously for many, many years now. I think that is changing around and I think that we may begin to see policies that differentiate the importance of daycare after the age of three compared to before the age of three. The large scale studies in England and the United States have showed an increased level of aggression in daycare kids under the age of three.

 

Now the results of those studies are downplayed in the media for a good reason. Most of the media, and many of the people in government—at least the women, had their kids in daycare or do have them in daycare or their friends have them in daycare and they do not want to taut the negative findings that are coming out. But I hope that that is beginning to change and society can get reoriented about the importance of those early years and that can’t be done with changing caregivers in an institutional daycare, it just can’t.

 

RM: Wow. Dr. Barker, the Canadian Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children exists to do what specifically?

 

EB: To increase public awareness of the importance of the nurturing of children in the earliest years.

 

RM: What exactly is empathic parenting?

 

EB: It’s trying to feel into the emotional needs of the infant and toddler and responding to those needs. You can feel the child’s needs and ignore them, but it’s understanding and perceiving the needs of the infant and toddler and attending to them and making it a priority to attend to them.

 

RM: Now I’m sure that there are a lot of people out there who would say, “I wasn’t raised by empathic parents and I turned out okay,” that’s usually what you hear. But what do you say to that?

 

EB: Well, you usually hear that from people who are in favor of physical punishment of children. “I was beaten and I am all right” and so on. I remember I was talking to a committee of the Senate of Canada years and years ago. One of the distinguished senators said something along the same line—I was raised this way and I’m okay. I should have said, “I’m not sure you are okay. I wish we had a measure of a capacity for empathy and see where you stood on it.” I didn’t say it of course, but I wish we did have a way of measuring empathy.

 

Empathy and trust, I think, are the root capacities of human beings and they’re deficient in a great many people. Sadly, in our society, I think psychopaths do rather well. If you don’t have to worry about the consequences of your behavior on other people you can make more money and do more stuff. 

 

So we are embedded in a consumer culture which does not reward empathy and trust. There is very little emphasis, if you watch TV and all the ads and the programs. No one is saying that a sense of community, of neighborliness, of trust with your fellow human beings in your community is the important things, it’s where it’s at. That doesn’t come off at all. It’s buy this car and some other crap that you should go out and make money to buy. It’s all wonky. Consumerism is really a root cause.

 

I used to think that the Women’s Movement championed the early daycare, but I think that they were co-opted by, as we all have been, by the values of consumerism—envy, selfishness, and greed. We’ve come to sort of accept those things as the way we should be living. It’s nonsense! It’s not the way we should be living and it impacts most severely on the infants and toddlers who are being neglected in institutional daycare while we are making a few bucks working at Mac’s Milk so we can buy a car we can worship.

 

RM: Or a TV. You believe that institutions, traditions and beliefs should be reevaluated in light of the things you said. What are some of the traditions you feel undermine empathic parenting?

 

EB: Consumerism. Arbitrary male dominance. I googled that to see what sort of literature there is and the only place I found it was on our website and something I said a long ways back. I think that is a root problem. I think that women have a very legitimate concern when they are expected to knuckle under to the beliefs of a male just because he is a male. I don’t think that there is enough attention paid to that and I would like to see effort to correct that so that males do not feel that they have this certain male prerogative to overrule females.

 

But apart from that, consumerism is really what has distorted all of our values over the last 30 years and has everyone preoccupied with making a buck to just get by. If we had equal emphasis about voluntary simplicity, if we had equal amount of time and energy getting along without things as we do trying to get the money to get things, we’d be much better off.

 

So those are a couple of societal values that need to be changed. No where is there much of a public cry about those things, and there ought to be.

 

RM: Dr. Barker, one thing that I found interesting in your organizational literature was an emphasis on pre-conception planning. What impact do you feel pre-conception planning has on parenting?

 

EB: Often, with the kinds of kids who murdered, raped, and so on. In court, people would say, “Where did things go wrong?” They went wrong before conception. Before conception the parents have to have some notion of the value they are going to attribute to the nurturing of this child and they should have some idea of the support system that is in place when they have this child. It takes half a dozen people at least to kind of nurture the people who nurture the child.

 

Instead of planning the color of the crib the room and all that nonsense, they should be counting the number of people they can count on when the baby arrives as close neighbors or at least close enough emotionally that they can call them at the drop of a hat or they can stop in and contribute and relieve the heavy work of looking after a child. That can be setup and should be set up pre-conception. The opinions that the two parents have about nurturing the child are vitally important and those are determined by the time the child is conceived.

 

That is where the emphasis should be and that’s where the preparation should be. It should be in the elementary schools primarily so it is all clearly there before children are physically able to have children.

 

RM: Well, you know Dr. Barker, I can’t help but feel somewhat saddened by that. My husband and I were fortunate. Our pregnancy was planned. We were ecstatic when we found out we were having a baby. I was so excited about parenting and I really looked upon motherhood fondly. I think most importantly, I was able to do whatever was necessary to raise my daughter in a home where she felt loved and secure.

 

But I realize that not everyone is prepared for parenthood. Some people are in all sorts of situations when they become parents and many are literally taken by surprise. Are the children born into those environments—in which parents aren’t necessarily prepared for parenthood—destined to have problems in their adult years?

 

EB: No, but it’s biased against them with that situation. There is a lot in pregnancy and birthing, when it’s done right, that the child, I think, is biologically programmed to win over the parents for adequate nurturing. The trouble is that much of our society says, “You don’t need to do that. Get out and get back to work in 15 days or whatever.” I think biologically, you know, the child is really captivating and those first smiles and so on and the reciprocal nature of what is happening between the mother and the child, particularly with breastfeeding.

 

What happens now is, studies show, there are hormonal changes in the father as well that tend toward attachment, and that can happen in a 15 or 16-year-old that gets knocked up at a party. But those mechanisms are still there by the child and by biology to make that work, but there is so much in our society that draws us away from that. So yes, it can happen and happen very well in an unplanned situation. It shouldn’t, it should be that children are exposed—there are programs that teach parenting from kindergarten through grade 8, but that should be the way that it happens so that it doesn’t happen by chance. I talked to… I better not get into my own practice, but babies come and come for various reasons, or lack of them.

 

RM: I’ve heard quite a few moms admit to feeing inadequate at some point in their parenting journey. But I’m reading here that any parent who feels inadequate or inferior is handicapped in providing optimal child nurture. Can you say a bit more about that?

 

EB: That’s been one of the reasons to not say anything negative about infant daycare—don’t make the mother feel guilty. Well, there are some things that people should feel guilty about. Neglecting the needs of an infant and toddler are high on my list for that. I don’t make any apologies for making people who are doing it wrong for feeling guilty about doing it wrong.

 

RM: I’m sure many of our listeners will have quite a bit to say about that. Go ahead, send me your emails, I’m expecting them. Well, Dr. Barker, what tools and resources can Canadian Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children offer parents to help them parent well?

 

EB: We gave a website, empathicparenting.org, and several websites that are developing. There’s a lot of information, I think, related to these issues on the website. We soon, maybe in a few months, will have all the back issues of Empathic Parenting, there are about 100 of them, up on the Internet where they can be searched. So I don’t think there’s any shortage of information for people who are inclined that way.

 

In particular, we hope to make our websites user friendly for young kids who are handy with the Internet and doing school projects on subjects related to the nurturing of children.

 

RM: Given your experience, what would you say to the moms out there are the most important ways that they can support and encourage good mental health in their children?

 

EB: Love them. Well, basically that. Empathic parenting. Sense the needs of the child and spend some energy to meet those needs, especially in the first three years. I think that after the age of three, if you abandon the child to daycare or whatever at that point, you will end up with an unhappy child or a neurotic child. Before the age of three, I think it is much more sinister but less apparent. You end up with a child with a lack of empathy and trust. That is much more sinister from a societal point of view, although the child might not feel unhappy, except in their psychopathic way they can’t get what they instantly want.

 

That’s the danger in under three. They’re not as vociferous about the needs to be there. They are, but people get attuned to their crying and being upset and have all kinds of rationalizations about that. But I think that roughly that’s the cut-off point at age three. When the child can at least say to them and they can understand why you’re leaving and when you might come back because they have object permanence. In those early years, they don’t have those things, they’re simply abandoned, feel abandoned, and feel angry about being abandoned. You don’t see that until later when they’re teenagers and so on.

 

RM: To learn more about the work of the CSPCC or empathic parenting, please do visit empathicparenting.org. I know that there is a parenting IQ test there to test your knowledge on the site as well as quite a few pictures of the same baby. Dr. Barker, who might that baby be?

 

EB: Well, it was a baby that came from a photo agency that is no longer in existence. I picked it out because it seemed to convey the vulnerability of a child, which is the essence of the problem for under threes. They are incredibly vulnerable and need their needs met then.

 

RM: Dr. Barker, thank you so much for joining me today. It has been a real pleasure having you on.

 

EB: You’re welcome. Thank you Kemi.

 

RM:  My thanks again to Dr. Elliot Barker from the Canadian Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children. Wow! He sure did have a lot to say about parenting choices and the impact of our parenting choices on our children.